Thinking of rebuilding a cane rod?

[DRYFLYPHIL]

Guys,
with winter still a ways off, though coming soon , my thought is for a winter project. I'm thinking about buying a basket case bamboo cane fly rod in a trout weight and rebuild it.

I just started to think about a project like this, but actually where do I start?? I really don't know a whole lot about a good basket case from a bad one, or a price that would go along with such an item. I do check on e-bay from time to time for project cane rods, but I'm reserved to get myself involved in any bidding because of my lack of knowledge about backet case cane fly rods. Just because they are old doesn't mean I should bid on one.

So my question is?

Price, what to look for, condition etc?

Kim & Henry, I know you two guys have rebuilt cane rods in the past so any info from either of you two as well as anybody else out there would be a huge help.

So where do I start???

[AgMD]

Phil -- This is how it starts -- but you are responsible for your own madness --so here is a bit of what I know and some of what I think:
You are right -- finding a good project rod is where to start. Many of the old rods that you will find are unlovely beasts -- they were that way when they were made and will always be that way. Rebuilding a clunky beast is just as much work as rebuilding a nice rod so-- finding a rod that will be a nice casting/fishing tool is the first hurdle. Keep away from all the Horrocks-Ibotson 3 piece rods. With very few exceptions they are all dogs. ( I have a few that I rebuilt and they bark at me when ever I go near them). The two piece H-I rods such as the Tonka Prince, Tonka princess and the Tonka Queen are very nice casters and are a joy on stream. Worth a rebuild and so they are in big demand by rebuilders. The supply is getting smaller every year.
South Bend rods are usually identified with a number. Three digit numbers are "trout" models, two digit numbers are "bass/steelhead" models. You probably want a three digit Trout model.
The vast majority of old bamboo rods were made by Montague -- they were in business for over a hundred years and probably made more in any given year that any one else. Many Montys are very nice although some -- not so much.
Pre WWII most fly rods were 8 to 9 foot. There were a very few exceptions but they are hard to come by.
In general:
Unless you come across a high quality rod such as a Young or Payne ( unlikely but it could happen) pass on anything that has missing or cracked ferrules. New ferrules can easily cost more than the rebuilt rod is worth.
A rod with all pieces of equal length is much better than anything with short sections. A tip section that is short by an inch or so might be considered OK if everything else is good. Any section which is short by more that 3 or 4 inches -- pass it up.
Favor rods with cane which is intact, unbroken, and not de laminated. Minor fractures and minor delams can be fixed but when you see that, look carefully for more cane damage. Significant delams -- pass.
Cork is easily replaced but quality rings can cost $2+ per half inch.
Reel seats can be replaced and many of the Tonka seats will need to be. They were made with a plastic which was unstable. I had one which I removed from the rod with my fingers --one chunk at a time.
Expect the varnish to be crap, but if the varnish is mostly gone and the metal work shows significant corrosion -- inspect the bamboo VERY carefully. This rod may have been stored in the damp which could cause bamboo problems, particularly large scale de lamination.
Some generalities about rod quality:
Many makers build a number of models on the same blanks. Higher end rods got more guides, more expensive seats, better cork, and better ferrules. Same rod -- different fittings. Most high end rods will have something like as many guides as the rod is long, in feet, plus a stripper and tip top. -- an 8 foot rod will have 8 guides + stripper + tip top. Less expensive rods may only have two guides on each section. Many an old low end rod has been improved by adding a few guides during the rebuild.
Nickel Silver guides were( and are) expensive -- only found on the high end models. Nickel plated brass is next , and chrome plated brass is least. Most chrome ferrules will have brass showing through where the plating has worn or failed. They will never look bright and shiny but they function OK. If it bothers you, you can always polish off the rest of the chrome and blacken the brass. Good ferrules will have a welt ( reinforcing band of metal) at the open end of the female ferrules. Crappy, VERY low end ferrules will not. Most project rods have enough dirt and corrosion on the ferrules to prevent you from putting them together. This can be cleaned but don't force them -- stuck ferrules can be a pain. Expect that the glue mounting the ferrules in place has failed. If it hasn't, it probably will when the rod is fished. Unless I have reason not to, I remount all the ferrules during the rebuild.
Quality of cork can be an indicator. Lots of pits or 1 inch rings can be a sign of cheap cork --- but there were a few periods in the history of bamboo, when cork of any quality was hard to come by and even some high quality makers ( Young for instance) found themselves using anything they could get.
Quality of the seat can be a good indicator of the rods original quality. Pre war, plastic and aluminum were considered to be the modern high end materials of the day, so don't discount a well made seat made of these materials unless it just plain looks like a piece of junk.
You should probably expect to replace the snakes although some times a bit of surface rust can be removed and the guides reblued. A rare but happy find. Many of the strippers were were made of "agatine" -- artificial agate. it is rare that these are cracked but they should be inspected.
Sinclairs "The Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook" is by far the BEST cataloge of old bamboo rods. It lists the major models of the major makers and can be invaluable for figuring out "what have I got here?" Now in reprint @ $75 IIRC. I have one so if you find something, I can try to look it up for you. When you totally succumb to this madness, you will want a copy.
Recap: bamboo repairs are difficult, major bamboo problems can be more than you want to deal with on your first go 'round. Ferules are expensive, cork and seats are easy and don't have to be too expensive.
All of this is in reference to the blue collar rods that we are likely to find. A Monty with significant problems might be passed since there are so many out there. Never run after a street car -- there will always be another. BUT-- there are some rods, made by quality makers, which by virtue of there quality or historical significance, might be worth restoring even if they had major issues.
Which brings up the issue of -- re build or re store. Certainly, if you came across something like an old Edwards, the historical significance might be such that a reasonable attempt to restore it to original might be in order. For pretty much anything made by the big production houses the question is purely a matter of personal taste. The bamboo world will not miss the loss of a Monty which has lost it's original character and many of these rods can be re built into better tools than they were originally.
Price: This is harder. Condition is a major factor. In general I would not pay more than $100 for anything that was not a truly special rod. You may remember my Shakespeare -- Blond with red wraps. Varnish was a total wreck but everything was full length and all the parts, except guides, was present. I paid $25 for it but this was maybe 10 years ago and I bought it from a flea market vendor who really didn't know anything about fishin rods. Today, if sold by someone who knew something -- it might go for $50 to $100.
Today e-bay is generally a terrible place to by old bamboo. Everybody is shopping there and the sellers think that everything bamboo is a high end collectable. That said, you can find some good project rods there, it is just much harder than it used to be. Flea markets, junk shops, etc.. is generally the best place to find some bargains.
I am certain that I have left out some important stuff, but if there are any questions -- fire away.
Also I am sending you a PM.
AgMD